The PIVOT: Navigating Uncharted Territory with Dave Schoof

Part 2: Metabolizing the Poly-Crisis with Rob McNamara

There’s an anxiety humming beneath everything—like tinnitus that never stops. You feel it in leadership meetings where reactions explode out of proportion. In hair-trigger responses to small disruptions. In that 3am wakefulness that’s become a collective companion.
In this second conversation, Rob McNamara and I go deep into the question: How do we metabolize the poly-crisis, both personally and relationally—rather than being consumed by it?
We explore why survival mode has already lost the game, how intimacy with death becomes intimacy with life, and why relational space holds untapped generative power. We also discuss a simple practice to let life move through you, rather than against you.
This episode is especially for leaders, founders, and coaches ready to navigate complexity beyond survival—those seeking to develop the sensitivity to dance with uncertainty and access the intelligence that emerges between us.
About Rob McNamara:Rob is an expert in adult development, performance, and transformational leadership. He is the author of The Elegant Selfand teaches at the intersection of human development, relational intelligence, and inner work. Learn more at robmcnamara.com
 
Key quote: “Enlightenment isn't intimacy with all things—it’s intimacy AS all things.”
 
Topics include:
The grip and the open hand: how contraction blocks clarity
What it means to be radically available to life
Reclaiming presence and potency in relational space
Why doing less can create more impact in complexity
Episode Highlights:
00:02:05 – Why complexity feels so personal
00:07:43 – The grip and the open hand: contraction vs clarity
00:17:15 – Intimacy with death and the generativity of mortality
00:27:40 – The intelligence arising in relational space
00:36:12 – A somatic practice for metabolizing overwhelm
00:49:00 – Redefining leadership in complex times
00:57:30 – Becoming radically available to life
To explore the Pivot Podcast or my coaching work, visit daveschoof.com.
If this episode resonated, please subscribe—or forward it to someone navigating these times.
 
Production and Music composition:  Phil Schoof

Part 1: Depth, Coherence, and Leadership When the Maps Fail. What if the space between us is the map?

🎙️ Part 1 — Depth, Coherence, and Leadership When the Maps Fail
Subtitle: “What if the space between us is the map?”
 
Rob McNamara joins Dave to explore how relational depth, love, and presence may be the most strategic responses to the crises of our time.
Guest Bio – Rob McNamara
Rob McNamara is a transmitted Zen master, advisor, consultant, and executive coach. He is the author of four books, most recently "Foundations for Elegant Relationships and Powerful Listening."  He is a co-founder of Dragon Lake Zen, where he works to fit the lineage to address existential and catastrophic risk. Rob serves on faculty at the Ivey School of Business’s LIFT Advanced Coaching Program and Real LIFE Programs. He is a former Harvard University Teaching Fellow, teaching adult development at Harvard’s Graduate School of Education.

Rob currently coaches, trains, and advises individuals, teams, and communities on how to protect and cultivate value-dense capabilities necessary for successfully navigating today’s changing landscapes.
Standout Quotes 
“Depth isn’t a luxury. It’s a survival skill.”
“The crisis isn’t out there—it’s moving through us.”
“You don’t need a new map. You need a deeper relationship with the unknown.”
Timeline:
0:00 – Meta-crisis, personal pivot, and transformation as orientation
6:00 – From individual growth to collective and relational transformation
13:00 – Polarization, limbic overwhelm, and the weaponization of media
21:00 – Psychological warfare, attentional hijack, and digital overwhelm
29:00 – Death as a calibration tool for meaning and perspective
37:00 – Coherence, sameness/difference, and leadership blind spots
Referenced Resources 
Zachary Stein – Educational Meta-Crisis. 
Forest Landry – 'The faster the change, the deeper the depth required'. Video. 
Concepts: psychological warfare, digital overwhelm, coherence, relational practice, death as a calibration lens
Music and production:  Phil Schoof

Rewilding, Resonance, and the Future of Leadership with Sonja Blignaut

🎙️ Episode Overview
What if leadership isn't about control, but resonance?
In this episode of The Pivot, Dave Schoof speaks with Sonja Blignaut about rewilding, untaming, and how to lead through complexity and change. They explore how to find your way in liminal times — when the old maps no longer work — and why resonance, embodiment, and imagination may be the skills most needed now.
Sonja is a Wayfinding guide and complexity practitioner with 20+ years of experience helping leaders navigate uncertainty. Her work bridges natural science, art, and contemplative practice — weaving intellect and intuition, structure and emergence.
🎧 More about Sonja: https://www.morebeyond.co.za
🎙️ Learn more about the show: https://www.daveschoof.com
⏳ Episode Highlights
03:01 – The Liminal Phase: Collective Rite of Passage
07:48 – Complexity as Braiding
11:28 – Rewilding vs. Untaming
15:19 – The Disquiet & Existential Angst
19:13 – Embodiment & Breaking the Woo-Woo Barrier
24:40 – Bridging & Liminal Creatures
29:35 – Hope vs. Despair Oscillation
35:17 – Love as an Organizing Principle
37:57 – Science, Rationality & the Imaginal
40:45 – Wayfinding Framework Deep Dive
47:48 – Emergence & Fields
50:18 – Evolving the Coach/Guide Role
54:58 – Capacity Building & Resilience
58:44 – Future Directions & Retreats
1:02:20 – Enchantment & Integration
💬 Key Quotes
“We are all in the flux… there's an ‘all in this together’ kind of sense.”
“Complexity means braided together — it doesn’t really serve us to keep things apart.”
“We don’t need more rational. We need more imaginal.”
🔗 Resources Mentioned
Michael Mead (mythologist)

Polynesian Wayfinders

Glennon Doyle – Untamed

Marcus Buckingham (Harvard research on love at work)

Trish Blaine – “Airlock” concept

Original music by Phil Schoof
Production:  Phil Schoof

Navigating the Global Realignment: Human Rights at the edges.

Episode Description
In this compelling conversation, Dave speaks with Florian Irminger about his journey from high-visibility political leadership to behind-the-scenes human rights advocacy, and what he calls the "Global Realignment" we're all navigating. This episode explores how leaders can pivot from old ways of working to meet unprecedented challenges, why admitting "I don't know" is becoming essential leadership, and how human rights work is at the leading edge of what we all need to learn to thrive in this new world.
Guest Bio: Florian Irminger
Florian Irminger is the founder of Progress & Change Action Lab, an advisory group dedicated to supporting organizations and institutions navigating complex social and political transformations. Following his tenure as Secretary-General of the Swiss Green Party, Florian made the conscious decision to step back from high-visibility political leadership to work behind the scenes, supporting others in creating meaningful change.
Inspired by Robert F. Kennedy's words that "Progress is the nice word we like to use. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies," Florian has dedicated his work to addressing what he calls the "Global Realignment"—fundamental shifts in our political, social, and human rights landscape.
Recently, Florian launched two significant initiatives: the Human Rights Compass, which brings together organizations beyond traditional branding to collaborate on key recommendations for addressing global challenges, and the Human Rights Index, launched in response to political and social media shifts.
Dave first met Florian when he was working at Human Rights House headquarters in Oslo, and later worked with him as he opened offices in Geneva and Brussels. They've maintained their connection as Florian's career and life have evolved.
 
Episode Timeline & Key Themes
00:00 - 03:00: Opening & Origins
Introduction and reflection on their 10+ year relationship since meeting at Human Rights House in Oslo
The memorable story of humor as a mask - early coaching insight that stayed with Florian
03:00 - 07:40: The Personal Pivot
Florian's decision to step back from his own career to support his wife's diplomatic career
Moving from 250 emails a day to 10, but each with real value
The luxury of being able to focus on what's essential
07:40 - 12:54: From Public to Behind-the-Scenes Leadership
Shifting from getting energy from public attention to finding nourishment in deeper work
Creating breathing spaces for overwhelmed human rights CEOs
The loneliness of leadership and the power of authentic connection
12:54 - 21:10: The Global Realignment
How COVID revealed similarities between different sectors facing uncertainty
The challenge for human rights CEOs in an increasingly hostile environment
RFK's insight: "Progress is the nice word we like to use. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies"
Why the resistance isn't to human rights values but to the change required
21:10 - 26:48: Working with "Angels" - The NGO Challenge
Managing organizations full of well-intentioned, highly educated people who see themselves as "doing good"
The difficulty when "angels" suddenly find themselves labeled as enemies
The need for inward-looking organizational development, not just external solutions
26:48 - 34:02: The Compass Has Lost North
Why traditional approaches no longer work in the current environment
The image of a compass that's lost its north - we need to learn to hold it differently
How social recognition for human rights workers has disappeared in many places
The question: "Where will these people find recognition now?"
34:02 - 38:04: From Classical Music to Jazz
The need to stop having all the answers and start asking better questions
Moving from classical music (well-written, well-played) to jazz (improvisation and listening)
The challenge when "the paper the music is written on is burning"
38:04 - 43:10: Recognizing Readiness for Change
How to identify when leaders are ready to change (hint: it's not about tenure)
The power of admitting uncertainty as an indicator of readiness
The counterintuitive truth that vulnerability creates organizational strength
43:10 - 46:39: The 3AM Disquiet
Why this is a moment for public leaders to be authentic about not knowing
The parallel between Dave's coaching work and Florian's policy work
How both are seeing similar patterns across different sectors
46:39 - 52:00: Working Between Organizations
The freedom and authenticity that comes from not being institutionally bound
How COVID changed how people want to work - more connection to family, less institutional boundaries
The future of human rights work: organizations adapting to individuals rather than vice versa
52:00 - 1:00:14: Navigating Crisis Fatigue
The story of the 13-year-old who believed "we're all going to burn"
How we've been "exhausting the public" with constant crisis messaging
The fear that continuous pressure will create numbness and loss of empathy in human rights workers
1:00:14 - 1:06:32: The Lost Decade
Working with people who don't have all the answers (the easy tell: if they say they do, they're not ready)
The regression of human progress indicators for the first time since 1945
Why this decade (2020s) may be remembered as "the black hole decade"
The hope that universal suffering will create unity across all sectors of society
1:06:32 - 1:11:54: Personal Navigation Strategies
Florian's shift from traditional meditation to playing saxophone as breathing/connection practice
How the saxophone reveals his emotional state
The importance of reading classic literature to gain a historical perspective
Stepping back from the immediacy of social media and current events
1:11:54 - 1:16:31: Whispers from the Future
The recognition that mental health support is needed but still stigmatized
Faith that humanity is equipped to overcome this moment, as it has before
The reminder that it takes only seconds to destroy what humanity builds over centuries
"The pyramids are still standing."
1:16:31 - 1:21:08: Closing Reflections
The impact of stress on leadership capacity and judgment
How people are reverting to more instinctive, animal-like reactions
The importance of "getting the individuals right" for society to come together
Key Quotes
"I want to work with people that I like. So that is my new life journey - to value the family first, and value the people that I want to work with."
"Progress is the nice word we like to use. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies." - RFK
"We need to stop thinking that we have answers and learn better how to ask questions... We need to start playing jazz, because then we're improvising and listening to each other."
"I think admitting the uncertainty is, to me, an indicator of readiness to change."
"We are really equipped to deal with all of this and to come together. I just don't know who will be the 'we' and where it will happen and when."
Resources Mentioned
Human Rights Compass: http://humanrightscompass.org
Human Rights Index: https://bsky.app/profile/humanrightsindex.bsky.social
Progress & Change Action Lab: https://progress-change-actionlab.org
Books mentioned:
The contemporary author mentioned is Karine Tuil (I think some of her work was actually translated);
The book from which I was quoting at the start, about the use of humour by Boris Johnson, was Anthony Seldon’s “Johnson at 10. The Inside Story”;
Jean-Claude Guillebaud’s “La foundation du monde” is the book discussed regarding the 20th century's lack of closure.
At the very end, the book was Jostein Gaarder’s “Maya”.
Connect with Florian
Progress & Change Action Lab: https://progress-change-actionlab.org
Human Rights Compass: http://humanrightscompass.org
Key Takeaways
The Power of the Pivot: Sometimes stepping back from visibility creates more authentic impact
Admitting "I Don't Know": In times of uncertainty, vulnerability becomes a leadership strength
From Answers to Questions: Moving from classical music to jazz - improvising and listening rather than following old scripts
The Global Realignment: We're all navigating similar challenges across different sectors
Personal Navigation: Finding practices (like saxophone for breathing, classic literature for perspective) to maintain balance in chaos
Future Hope: Humanity has overcome difficult moments before and is equipped to do so again
This was a profound conversation about leadership, change, and hope in uncertain times. Perfect for anyone navigating their own pivot in work, leadership, or life.
My website:  www.daveschoof.com
 
Original music:  Phil Schoof
Production:  Phil Schoof

Dancing with the Unknown: The First Step into The Pivot

Episode 1: Pivoting into Possibility with Amah
What if the pivot you’re seeking isn’t a sharp turn — but a deep surrender into something bigger?
Welcome to the very first episode of The Pivot! I’m your host, Dave Schoof, and today we’re not doing a classic interview. Instead, I’m sitting down with the brilliant Amah for an open exploration of what it means to navigate uncertainty, embrace emergence, and trust the wisdom unfolding through us.
If you’re feeling the tremble of change and wondering how to find your way forward — you’re in exactly the right place.
In this very first episode of The Pivot, Dave invites Amah — an intuitive guide, deep listener, and explorer of human transformation — for a conversation that’s more of an unfolding than an interview.
Together, they dive into:
The art of surrendering control during major life transitions,
How to listen for what’s emerging rather than forcing outcomes,
Why uncertainty is not a problem to solve, but an invitation to evolve,
Personal stories of pivotal moments that reshaped their paths,
The power of authentic presence in creating new realities.
This episode is about more than insights — it’s about feeling into the living edge of change itself.
Timestamps:
00:00 – Welcome to The Pivot 
03:15 – Introducing Amah: Healer, guide, and navigator of emergence
07:40 – Redefining “the pivot” in uncertain times
14:20 – The tension between control and surrender
22:00 – Real-life stories of trusting the unknown
31:45 – What it means to be in conversation with life
40:10 – Closing reflections + invitation to listeners
Connect with Amah:Amah Sia
Follow The Pivot:Dave Schoof: Wilderness Guide
Writings from The Pivot: form the map to the territory
 

Emergent Leadership and Psychdelics

Paul Auston, CEO of Thirdwave, and I explored the emerging field of Psychedelicdelics and leadership as well as other aspects of my own journey to working with psychedelics. For the full episode, here is the links:  YouTube